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 This game is annoying...for humans with no internetz

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fourthplace
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PostSubject: This game is annoying...for humans with no internetz   Tue Oct 18, 2011 2:11 pm

Don't get me wrong, I love this game, and I will continue to play it, beat it, and play it again - but there are soooooooooo many stupid things about this game.


How UNFRIENDLY can a game get?
Yeah we understand there's no hand-holding here, but it
really does not explain ANYTHING if you think about it.

Which weapons scale with what stats?
How do you upgrade, what do you need to upgrade?
WHERE DO YOU GO???

I love open world games, but this is too open -
you really have no clue where to go unless you do guess and check
in this game - you need to go to an area and die multiple times trying
to figure out if you can handle it or not.

The items are not descriptive.
Nothing really is descriptive. Humanity isn't explained well,
covenants are not explained well, NOTHING IS EXPLAINED WELL!

I personally HATE referring to guides or checking guides
because I like doing things on my own - but this is one game
that would be impossible without a guide.

How many of you would be lost without a wiki or guide to refer to?

I love this game, but I hate it.
I don't wish it was easy, but Demon's Souls being a bit more
friendly made it much more enjoyable because you could actually
focus on the game without checking a guide every 10 seconds.

I beat Demon's Souls and it's my all-time favorite game, I beat
it multiple times without the use of any guides. I explored every nook
and cranny on my own and literally left nothing behind or no stone unturned.

When I played through it on NG++, I referred to a guide to see if there
was anything I had missed, but there wasn't - I wasn't surprised either.

But this game???
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bdwright77
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PostSubject: Re: This game is annoying...for humans with no internetz   Tue Oct 18, 2011 2:17 pm

It really doesn't explain a thing. That's true. I got lost in a difficult part of the game to start. I guess knowing that it doesn't give you any guidance going in is helpful so that people lean on the wikis and guides more. This game really requires you to do that.
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TyrantII
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PostSubject: Re: This game is annoying...for humans with no internetz   Tue Oct 18, 2011 2:23 pm

I'm loving it. The sense of exploration and constant tension are directly related to the lack of hand holding or explanations / guiding.

That's part of the appeal. The deep item and upgrade system is also really fun to play with. Like DS you don't NEED to totally understand it to get by and beat the game, but you can go look at a wiki and make some plans on the different paths to take if you want to. That's fine IMO.

The NCP's tell you where to go BTW. First two missions were to ring the bells, as stated by the guy in firelink. The next is to go to new londo, as stated by the new NCP after. There is direction, if you spend the time to converse with the only things not trying to kill you.

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frankthetoad
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PostSubject: Re: This game is annoying...for humans with no internetz   Tue Oct 18, 2011 2:38 pm

I agree completely that information is lacking in the game. Though I'm not sure if it was intentional, it kind of adds a sense of community when you have to get on wikis to work out what the hell you're supposed to do. I've sent lots of PSN messages to phantoms asking about weapons they were using, etc.

As Tyrant mentioned, it is very important to listen to the NPCs, not only for the tiny morsels of the only bit of story you're going to get from this game, but also for helpful instructions. In fact, sad little blue guy at Firelink suggests you go up the stairs (to Undead Burg) when you first talk to him upon arrival.

After that, it's identical to Demon's Souls in its cryptic-ness... DS didn't explain upgrading...it sure as hell didn't explain Character and World Tendency, which was about 69,000x more complicated/complex than anything in this game. Tendency was some kind of crazy Demon's Souls Calculus you could probably devote a few years of serious study to.

When you think about how the levels were set up in DS, they were approached the same way as it is in this so-called Open World. Many of the worlds in DS were too difficult to do in order...you had to jump around until you found one that was a little less punishing.

I understand what people mean when they say this game is open world....but except for the shortcuts between "levels" how is this any different than DS? Firelink IS the Nexus.

I'm not exactly trying to defend the game, and I realize you weren't exactly attacking the game. All I know is, Dark Souls fills the gaping hole that DS left in my heart once I decided 4 playthroughs was enough....

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pdiss88
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PostSubject: Re: This game is annoying...for humans with no internetz   Tue Oct 18, 2011 3:04 pm

The game isn't for everyone. Personally, I loathed Demon's Souls with every fiber of my being and will never touch a similar game based off of my experience.

However, others love this game and I can respect that. To each his own.
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TyrantII
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PostSubject: Re: This game is annoying...for humans with no internetz   Tue Oct 18, 2011 3:21 pm

Toad, yup, Firelink is the Nexus.

They just got rid of the warp problems, and figured out how to stream the entire world on the fly. That's not a huge difference in feel from DS; but its is a technical feat and also a huge undertaking in level design to make the world all connect together. DS was much more linear and closed off in that regard.

I'm really digging how they changed this aspect. The only loading screens are the ones when booting up your save, and the ones when jumping between other players worlds in COOP.

Been hearing the world on the street is that DKS world is actually bigger than Skyrims.... which if true could be problematic for that game.

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_Meta_
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PostSubject: Re: This game is annoying...for humans with no internetz   Tue Oct 18, 2011 3:26 pm

Hopefully the more I play it I will understand it. Maybe having never played Demon Souls I will be able to acclimate to the new features in Dark easier than those that mastered and were used to Demon. I definitely agree there should be a little more explanation of the gameplay basics.
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Rooksarii
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PostSubject: Re: This game is annoying...for humans with no internetz   Tue Oct 18, 2011 4:02 pm

The one thing I think folks love and justify about DS1 and DS2 is the lack of overt direction and story. To be fair, Demons had a bit more story to it than Dark seems to.

It works great for this game of patience testing difficulty, but I think it also serves as a cop out for freeing the devs from throwing in much (if any) story. What I would at least like to see is some deeper narrative (optional if need be) that could direct folks towards where they should go, or even why they are going there, etc.

Me? I am die hard DS 1+2 fan, from what I have played and from what I have left to play. But I can see why this game would be offputting to even the most devoted of RPG fans, either due to the mechanical aspects such as real-time controls or the lack of substantial story.

That all being said, if From Software would like my resume for the the story design team based out of somewhere within driving distance of my house, tell me where to send it. What a Face
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TyrantII
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PostSubject: Re: This game is annoying...for humans with no internetz   Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:14 pm

I'm not so sure.

It's just a direct vs indirect story. Games like MGS or Uncharted are direct. They feel more like movies, you play as a third party lead, and gameplay stops to fill you in on plot. They've gotten better moving it along while in actual gameplay situations, but it's still cut scene oriented, A therefor B therefore C for the most part.

DS/DKS on the other hand is indirect. They start you off with the prologue movie that explains the lore, then throw you into the fire. You get the rest of the story from talking to NCP's, acting out the story through your actions, and doing the many side quests. It's just as deep, but you're not Snake or Drake; you are the lead in the world. It's not "what are you supposed to do", it's "what you're doing".

I've killed Queelag and rung the second bell, because of the NCP's story, and the suggestion that it might help my dreary cause. You very quickly realized that everything's trying to kill you, you hollow and cursed, and there might be a slim chance if you accept a quest. I found chaos covenant, but can't talk to the witch yet. I found her sister on the swamp, who told me a crazy story about the lords of the world, and how the soul her mother and sisters tried to forge to use against them backfired. she was the only to escape. She now wants me to release their souls out of pity. Is she telling the truth? The story was believable, maybe. It added to the overall plot for sure.

Honestly, it's pretty deep if you stop to take a look at it and talk to the NCP's, read the item descriptions, and put it all together. Like the rest of the game, it's not thrown up in a cut-scene and handed to you. It needs to be taken all together, and mused upon.

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Mark Sporto
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PostSubject: Re: This game is annoying...for humans with no internetz   Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:27 pm

the lack of narrative has been making me slowly lose interest. i've been enjoying it, but getting bored with no idea of what's going on or why i'm there. and i have the guide and talk to every NPC until they tell me to go away. at the same time, i don't have 35 hours a week to dump into games so in the limited time i do have i'd like to spend my time actually accomplishing something or knowing what i should be doing.

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frankthetoad
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PostSubject: Re: This game is annoying...for humans with no internetz   Tue Oct 18, 2011 7:25 pm

You should be getting souls and killing stuff. How's that for a story?

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Beans
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PostSubject: Re: This game is annoying...for humans with no internetz   Tue Oct 18, 2011 8:27 pm

Mark Sporto wrote:
the lack of narrative has been making me slowly lose interest. i've been enjoying it, but getting bored with no idea of what's going on or why i'm there. and i have the guide and talk to every NPC until they tell me to go away. at the same time, i don't have 35 hours a week to dump into games so in the limited time i do have i'd like to spend my time actually accomplishing something or knowing what i should be doing.


well, looks like brendan isn't going to get to watch The Walking Dead.

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Kekborg
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PostSubject: Re: This game is annoying...for humans with no internetz   Tue Oct 18, 2011 10:01 pm

I I love you this game!

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TyrantII
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PostSubject: Re: This game is annoying...for humans with no internetz   Tue Oct 18, 2011 10:24 pm


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fourthplace
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PostSubject: Re: This game is annoying...for humans with no internetz   Tue Oct 18, 2011 10:50 pm

Tyrant, lol - that's exactly how I felt with DS1.
--------

I'm pissed off, I just spent a decent amount of time killing EVERY single one of those Stone Giants without using a single Estus Potion. I methodically killed all of one by one (fought 2 at once) to leave the whole area open for me to explore - went and touched the bonfire for no reason only for them to revive. LOL. Didn't think they would, thought they were little mini-bosses.
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fourthplace
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PostSubject: Re: This game is annoying...for humans with no internetz   Tue Oct 18, 2011 10:57 pm

Pdiss, well said. Though I can advise you to NEVER pick this game up because you would hate it faaaaar more than you ever could Demon's Souls, lol. I'm actually quite surprised at the good reviews it's been getting simply because I think the lack of direction or explanation is a HUGE flaw and not something "unique" or "awesome." I still love the game, I don't know why.
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Meta, find the baklava shield?
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Also, I wouldn't go as far as saying that Firelink is like the Nexus. In the Nexus, it's you + five different places to go. Only five - with each being it's own "little" world with the big, bad boss battle at the end. In Firelink, it's you in essentially what seems to be a mini "universe," if that makes sense. It's way more wide open to be able to fairly compare it to the Nexus I believe.
--------

I'm sitting here playing this game with my laptop in my side, on the Gamespot guide website, I never had to do that before.
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mbgonzomd
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PostSubject: Re: This game is annoying...for humans with no internetz   Wed Oct 19, 2011 7:16 am

Yes, agree. This game is fuhking stupid. Think about how hard it would be if Gore had not invented the internet.

I personally have found I would rather watch someone play a section of the game before I play it. That way I can get through a section a little faster than if I was trying to wing it on my own. I still enjoy it and have the sense of accomplishment, but I waste a lot less time.

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_Meta_
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PostSubject: Re: This game is annoying...for humans with no internetz   Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:16 am

Can you revise the title of this thread from a question to a statement: This game is annoying.
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AlphaShepherd
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PostSubject: Re: This game is annoying...for humans with no internetz   Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:18 am

I can't even read this thread. I hated Demon's Souls. I can't get enough of this game. This is all that comes to mind:



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pdiss88
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PostSubject: Re: This game is annoying...for humans with no internetz   Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:50 am

fourthplace wrote:
I'm actually quite surprised at the good reviews it's been getting simply because I think the lack of direction or explanation is a HUGE flaw and not something "unique" or "awesome."

This is how I felt with Demon's Souls; while others praised the game for its controller-smashing difficulty, I found it unbalanced and badly playtested. I would destroy the enemies on one level and then I would get killed by the first enemy on the very next level. I don't find a game that does that to have "satisfying difficulty ramp-up." I shouldn't have to play that same level I just easily beat for three hours grinding for souls just so my character has a chance on the very next level.

Also, the fact that other players could invade your world and kill you was probably the most idiotic thing I've ever seen in any game, ever. I literally got invaded by a high-level player on the SECOND level in the game after playing for less than two hours. The second level. He killed me in one hit and I was forced to play the rest of the level as a soul with half-health, dying multiple times.

I shouldn't have to sign off of PSN just to avoid this asinine inclusion. I want to be able to send/receive messages from my friends whenever I'm playing PS3 even if I'm playing an offline game.

I was happy to even get the 20-dollar trade in value from this game when I picked up Red Dead Redemption.
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mbgonzomd
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PostSubject: Re: This game is annoying...for humans with no internetz   Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:05 am

At least the game seems to be loved or hated... instead of meh.

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TyrantII
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PostSubject: Re: This game is annoying...for humans with no internetz   Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:36 am

pdiss88 wrote:
fourthplace wrote:
I'm actually quite surprised at the good reviews it's been getting simply because I think the lack of direction or explanation is a HUGE flaw and not something "unique" or "awesome."

This is how I felt with Demon's Souls; while others praised the game for its controller-smashing difficulty, I found it unbalanced and badly playtested. I would destroy the enemies on one level and then I would get killed by the first enemy on the very next level. I don't find a game that does that to have "satisfying difficulty ramp-up." I shouldn't have to play that same level I just easily beat for three hours grinding for souls just so my character has a chance on the very next level.

Also, the fact that other players could invade your world and kill you was probably the most idiotic thing I've ever seen in any game, ever. I literally got invaded by a high-level player on the SECOND level in the game after playing for less than two hours. The second level. He killed me in one hit and I was forced to play the rest of the level as a soul with half-health, dying multiple times.

I shouldn't have to sign off of PSN just to avoid this asinine inclusion. I want to be able to send/receive messages from my friends whenever I'm playing PS3 even if I'm playing an offline game.

I was happy to even get the 20-dollar trade in value from this game when I picked up Red Dead Redemption.

The only reason to grind in DS or DKS is to get a jump on the plat. There was no grinding necessary...

But that assumes you knew enough to not press on and retreat to level up when you had a good sized pocket of souls. It also assumed you didn't try to beat the game in a linear fashion.

In all honesty, the "Difficulty" of these games has been way, way overrated. There's SNES games from back in the 90's that would eviscerate DS.

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Kekborg
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PostSubject: Re: This game is annoying...for humans with no internetz   Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:54 am

mbgonzomd wrote:
At least the game seems to be loved or hated... instead of meh.

Yep. I'm in the love camp. With that said, I do as you do mule and watch the boss fights (or at least read up on what to expect) via the interwebz prior to entering that section. If I get stuck, I'll also check into the interwebz. Just because I know what to expect does not mean an easy 'win' for me. And sometimes, the easy stuff can become hard if you go to fast. Example - lost 10,000+ souls in sens fortress the other night (got knocked off by the first round of swinging hatchet things). Should had been very easy to recover those as all I needed to do was kill two baddies, which were pretty easy with my lightning spear. I went to fast, took both of them on at the same time as opposed to one at a time - started stabbing, wasn't watching my green bar, and got demolished. Dumb move on my part. Strange enough, it's stuff like this that I love about the game.

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TyrantII
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PostSubject: Re: This game is annoying...for humans with no internetz   Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:59 am

you guys haven't be throwing down your white soap stones and helping others?

I've found that's the best way to explore a level, get a feel for the boss, and wager nothing. Death returns you to the bonfire with the souls you collected to that point, where you can put down and help someone else.

You can only come away with more souls, and if your lucky, tons of them from helping someone beat the boss. Then you can use the humanity earned after doing so a few times to go body and kindle the bonfire, and request help yourself.

I do say, if you're not doing COOP, you're doing it wrong as the COOP walkthrough you do is invaluable.

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mbgonzomd
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PostSubject: Re: This game is annoying...for humans with no internetz   Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:42 am

You sound pretty smart there young man. I need to start doing that.

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